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Town Board work session Tuesday 3:45 PM
GREENBURGH HOUSING AUTHORITY
BUDGET DISCUSSION-- AMENDMENTS TO PROPOSED BUDGET
WEDNESDAY: TOWN BOARD MEETING 7:15 PM
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104 comments:
Where are these amendments to the Budget?
The way I see it, Police medic $88,000 civilian medic $48,000
88-48= 40,000 plus the police have better benefits than civilans.
Ask the Chief how many tickets or arrest are made by police medics. Not many, because they are usually tied up on ems calls and at the hospital.
If this was such a good deal why is Greenburgh police, the only dept doing it?????????????????
Can anybody amswer that???
Paul ,Why do you let topics leave the main page. People on here had good Idea's to help cut the budget.
Mainly on the police dept. And it's gone. Are you going to take advice on these cuts.
Make all paramedics civiaians.
Why no discussion of parks and rec?
I don't have the budget with me but my memory says, police after four years earn $86,000 and the 2008 budget shows civilian employees in Advanced Life Support earning $56,000.
Chief Kapica says the Police paramedic can also do Policemanly things too when he responds; like directing traffic while holding a respirator.
And when the Police department officer responds as a paramedic, he brings with him his $10,000 stipend; he also brings his benefits, overtime, and holiday pay AND a police cruiser.
But most of all, since the Police Chief has made the case for how thin his Department is stretched, when the Police paramedic leaves his sector patrol for his hour+ emergency call; he is no longer patrolling his sector -- the job he was hired to do.
Give it up Chief. Let civilians handle paramedic work exclusively.
No cuts in police untill we hear from parks and rec !!!
Did anybody think what happens when a police paramedic happens tomake an arrest ? 2hrs off patrol while doing paper work.
Did you know ?? it takes a year to become a paramedic. Civilians come trained already when hired. Poice officers are off at school for the year.
Dear 12:09,
Although I don't agree with the logic (the Town Board should make cuts wherever they are found, $10,000 in paramedic stipends is a starting place) of waiting for the other Departments to report in, you have indirectly raised an interesting point: why haven't the other Departments responded? Did they not get the message? Are they exempt from responding?
The Public seeks not just a respite from this years 23% tax hike but also the start of an effort to reduce expenses -- why not start with next years's budget?
We know that they can play parlor tricks with the Fund Balance and make residents feel better. But that can't be used indefinitely as the Fund Balance shrinks. The 2009Budget is not going to get better and then there will be less Fund Balance to draw upon. We have to find ways to reduce spending. I and others have identified some propects. The Town Board needs to act, not ignore.
The Town, as unAmerican as it may be, cannot earn $1 and spend $2. And in a few months, we shall be looking at the Capital Budget and viewing everyone's must haves.
It's the same old song with a different fine tuning but it's still wrong: You can't earn $1, spend $2 and bond still another.
There's something rotten in Denamrk when both Feiner and Sheehan can't find any expense that can't be cut.
Did the DPW submit its budget reductions? All town budget reductions can be easily made just from the DPW and the Parks/Rec department.
Any cop who makes an arrest is of the road for a few hours, not just the paramedics.
Just a thought. Say their are 6, if you cut the police paramedics, you will safe their $8600 stipend each or a savings of a mere $51600. Problem is that the police department will now have to run out and find 6 replacements at $50,000 each plus benefits or $300,000. How is that a savings we are now in the red for $250K and the civilians only do EMS runs, they are not on patrom when not doing EMS runs! The chief is saving us money!
So, if a cop in the performance of his duties makes a traditional police style arrest AND this officer happens also to be the stipended patrol paramedic AND if he/she is caught in the paperwork morass of their police function, who will be the paramedic?
Civilian paramedics.
2 new police hires on the agenda this Wednesday.
Hal,
Paramedics are used for advanced life support. If the EMS cal does not need ALS intervention (medications, etc.) The regular EMTs can take the EMS call and the police paramedic can continue his arrest!
Just a thought, maybe you should start with real numbers, like $10,000 for each police paramedic.
And then you factor in the higher cost (as I explained above) of Police benefits vs civilian benefits and then you consider the need, says the Chief, to have officers on Patrol and you realize that by combining tasks, you are losing 6 officers who are doubling as paramedics (when they perform as paramedics they are not doing police tasks) and then you have sectors unpatrolled and a police cruiser not being used for patrol.
If the purpose of having police is to prevent crime and chase perps, having a needed patrolman doing paramedic calls is not what the Public assumes they are paying for in maintaining the Police Department budget.
Im sure that their are other departments where Paul can make cuts and it wont affect lives!
Hal:
I give you credit on the Library issue
BUT
you have no CLUE when it comes to the PD !!
See you at the meeting
Hal,
Ask the chief if you could do a ride along and see what the PD is really like!
Of course the Town could stop providing police paramedic services to the villages...that would reduce the number of calls and allow a reduction in personnel whether police or civilian.
Or put the service in the A budget and stop giving away poor people's tax money to the wealthy folks in Irvington!
always someone makes it seem like the ability of the police department to function is on the line, lives will be lost, the police are a hardworking lot and I need to ride around with the Chief to see what the police do.
what is the big deal about taking the police off the ALS detail and having it manned solely by civilians? civilians who spend all their time and training on handling medical emergencies, don't know how to fire a weapon or frisk a suspect etc.
if the police department is so lean and mean and near undermanned, please explain why they are having their friends out in force to defend their right to assume this contradictory function to preventing or fighting crime.
and if there is one policeman serving as the paramedic on a shift, what happens if his patrol is north elmsford and the ambulance is summoned to hartsdale?
it can't always an efficient system, can it?
what's the real issue here?
The real issue is Paul Feiner ! Cut Paul, not the PD.
Great job Paul Feiner ! Instead of putting $5000 in escrow, put $25,000 in escrow. With this amount, you will work harder to achieve goals.
Forget the snow angel program and going to people's homes to clean the driveway! Stick to the important things on hand. The Town is slowly going down hill. Instead of worrying about nonsense, lets try plan for the future of this Town. The Town needs sidewalks installed in various parts. The Greenburgh Town Court is the second busiest Town Court in the State. The facility is a disgrace! Illegal parking along a busy Rt 119 has to be used for court parking. Are you making future plans to correct this problem or are you going to wait until a disaster occurs, the lawsuit is filed and then raise taxes another 23% for a new facility!
There are big projects in store for the Town! Are you planning for the future or are you just worried about cleaning a driveway to get more votes?
I am very happy to have Police paramedics. I suffered a severe medical condition and because the paramedic was patrolling in the area, I am here today ! I know they can get tied up with other LIFE SAVINGS calls or even making arrests of criminals to make OUR neighborhoods safer. They are an asset to our community and I reflect that by making a donation to the wonderful men & woman that fight to make me feel safer in this crazy world.
Hal,
The real issue is Feiner isnt even demanding Parks and Rec respond to the budget issue.
Financial Assistance-No Greenburgh resident is denied participation in any Department or Community Recourse program because on an inability to pay. Financial assistance is available with proof and determination of need.
While I in no way oppose programs that allow families or children free or discount participation, I am concerned that the Town can not longer provide these free services.
33% of all children in GC get free lunch. Understanding this draws a picture of a town wide problem. How many are paying town or school taxes? What is the % of families or children enrolled in town programs that are unable to pay.
How can we, as a town continue to support free anything under the current circumstances? There are ample state and national services that can & do support these families. Do we receive grant money for these families?
I know that GC receives state aid for low income students but it clearly doesn't meet the entire needs of those students. We are paying, paying paying for programs that are not used by a large majority of unincorporated Greenburgh.
Again, as I said, I'm not opposed to helping those in need but I'm not liking the feeling that TOG is a charity organization.
At the risk of throwing gasoline (now a very expensive commodity) on the fire -
Let's privatize the ambulance and EMS services by awarding an exclusive franchise to one private sector provider. The franchisee pays the Town an annual fee for the right to answer all ALS/paramedic calls in Greenburgh and is subject to an annual independent review of its performance.
The Town can discontinue using police officers OR firepersons - saving money on both the stipend and the retirement benefits package. It would be easy to decide where the franchise revenues should be recognized, if the Villages opt in a separate franchise fee could be assessed for each. It would also reduce the Town's liability exposure, vehicle costs and support and overhead expenses.
The private carrier would then bill the insurance company or the healthcare provider of the person using the service - or in the case of an indigent, the State of NY's indigent care fund, for their service.
Most importantly, it would ELIMINATE forever one cost currently being paid by an ever-expanding government.
Paul has tried to privatize part of Parks and Recreation with the Sporttime deal - let's try it with a core governmental service. What do we really have to lose?
Most people don't fully understand how dysfunctional their Town government really is. First, all of the Department / function heads report to the ENTIRE Town Board, not the Supervisor. Thus a Supervisor is not empowered to demand anything unless a Supervisor is supported by enough of the other members of the Town Board to get something done. With all of the political infighting and grandstanding going on in Greenburgh, Town government is in many ways grid locked and has been for quite some time. Should the Rec Dept and all departments respond? Absolutely, but the buck stops with and belongs to the ENTIRE Town Board. A Town Supervisor in New York State has some additional responsibilities over and above other Board members, but has the same voting power (one vote) as the other Board members. A Supervisor can't spend money outside of their budget without approval from enough of the other members of a Town Board. It's all in the law folks.
Now to another topic. The true estimated annual cost of the Greenburgh Police.
Go to the Tentative Budget book for 2008 and go to page 56. There one will find accounts 100.1 through 101.1. If I entered the amounts correctly into my calculator, these total $10,858,344. Add to that the additional costs of "fringe" benefits (pension, health cares, life insurance, social security, etc.) at say 40% (which may be low), which is about $4,343,000. Add to that police overtime $1,004,250 less the overtime that the Town receives from special details and the Multiplex (page 83 accounts 15.1520.14 and .15 at $76,678 and $70,000) and finally add holiday pay (account 190.1) $337,075. If my total is correct, that's $16,396,804 for 120 members of the Greenburgh Police Department or an average of $136,640 per member. This does not include the cost of their post employment health insurance, which depending upon certain assumptions about how fast health costs will go up would add between $21,000 and conceivably $45,000 PER YEAR to that amount. It's the various fringe benefits that are killing the taxpayers. A similar analysis can and should be performed for all employee categories and released to the public. Then we can talk intelligently about the true cost of government activities.
Again! Why is Greenburgh the only Police Dept. in the STATE with police paramedics?????? Paul it makes no sense(cents).Suffolk County is the only other PD that offers the service but the medics are not police officers, they are CIVILIANS.
While your at it, the EMT's should all be civilians too. IT Absolutly
makes no sense to send 2 patrol officers to the hospital when you only have 7 patrol cars on the road as the Chief said. If there is another call 2 more go then your down to 3 on patrol. Scarey isn't it! Now you see why you never see patrol cars in your neighborhood,
I hope Kevin Morgan talks to Paul real soon,before the budget is passed. He knows it's a waste to have police paramedics. Come on Kevin Speak up!!
I guess we only want to cut police. How much waste is ther at TDYCC ???????
It just goes to show you ,that right up front,the Town could save money in the PD without jepordizing lives. It's just the beginning, they could save more money by getting more officers from inside and put them outside on the road. And not higher any new cops in 2008
Paul why don't you do a survey of every police officer in the dept and find out what their job is and what they do? See how many arrest or tickets are written and by who. I'm sure there are cops who haven't written a ticket in years.
Maybe there should be some kind of accountability .They just have to go into the shopping centers on central Ave or 119 and write tickets everyday for hanicap parking fire zone violations.It coud also bring in revenue. Just a thought. It seems all the Idea's on this blog go unamswered anyway
Let's not narrow the focus but expand it. Go to the Town website under meetings and read the Agenda for today's Town Board work session.
You won't find a separate item for the Budget will you? They covered their backsides by the always present phrase the day before a Town Board meeting: Agenda Review. And sure enough the Budget is on the Agenda for tomorrow's meeting. Maybe the topic will be discussed at the work session, maybe not but it is clearly not being given much emphasis before the Public Hearing tomorrow. And I repeat, the Tentative Budget has been rejected by the entire Town Board, so what do they expect the Public to be discussing at the meeting tomorrow?
I don't care how much you call Feiner the Chief Financial Officer, the Town Supervisor, the Chief Executive Officer...he does not run the Town by himself.
Where is the response from the other Department heads? Where is the interest from any of the Town Board members (Supervisor + 4 Council members) in the budget.
Don't any taxpayers feel offended by how the 2008 Budget is being handled or not being handled -- by the entire Town Board?
Writing tickets isnt the part of a police officers job. I dont think it is even the most important. We depend on police to help keep our community safe. I remember recently when Feiner was crowing about the crime decrease. Doesnt he understand we want a safe community.
Cut Parks
Did I read on this blog that there will be new police added to the force.
You have got to be kidding.
Does the chief want to leave Greenburgh in a bigger mess since he will be leaving within two years.
Chief all spending and raises should be STOPPED this time arround
Paul if you go ahead with what is requested not only by th PD but by all your departments you will be putting all the residents in a bigger hole.
I for one will put my tax money in a bank account until someone comes up with an answer as some one posted some time ago what will happen if we all hold back our tax monies..
Wow, it's amazing how little everyone really knows about EMS in greenburgh, most of the comments posted were posted without any facts to support them. Well let me help those that do not know any better by giving you some information based on facts.
First police- medic salary gives you a cop and a medic. A cop patroling a sector and able of going on an ems call if needed. If you get rid of the police medic stipend (10% of salary) and replace him with a civilian medic that cop will still be covering a sector and now you have to pay a civilian medic a salary and pay that cop (that was a medic) a salary. So you do the math a cop who is a medic = approx 88,000. A civilian medic plus a cop = approx 150,000. The town is saving money with the police medic.
Second...How many tickets or arrests do the cop medics make.....being tied up on ems?
On the average they make the same and some more than average tickets and arrest. (thats a fact you can check for yourself if you did the research). The bottom line is the town has been saving money for years with the ems system being the way it is thats why they do it. Could the system be better, absolutely but not without a big price tag.
Making ems totally civilian would be great. Ask any cop who is or isn't a medic and they would agree. The cops would love giving up all the ems to the civilian medics, that would free up the cop to keep doing police work. Again, its not going to happen without a big price tag.
Paying to send that cop to medic school for one year ...you loose a cop for one year.... In the past ten years the police department has paid to send only 2 cops to medic school. Most if not all of the police medics came to the job with medic training and experience. Againg saving the town money.
Making ems private by getting an outside provider....By doing that the town looses revenue generated by ems transport (can range from $400-700 per call.) greenburgh does over 5000 ems calls a year with most of them resulting in transport, you do the math. I don't think the town wants to give that up. but if they did go private you would'nt get any objections from the cops. However the residents might not like the what they get when they need an ambulance and one of the local private ambulance company shows up at there door. (very high turnover rate and grossly underpaid emt's and medic's). You get what you pay for.
There's is no great solution to the budget crisis in the town but cutting the police dept. budget is not the answer. Unfortunately our current town board and supervisor which were entrusted for years with figuring out the budget have made some grave errors in not raising taxes conservatively over the years, sure you kept people happy so that your reelections went smoothly but know you have realize thats it's impossible to run a town without the occasional increase in taxes (prices rise for everything over the years ie. fuel, labor, materials, equip. etc). How can you effectively run a town over the years and not take that into consideration. Because of your mistakes the residents and all of the town employees have to suffer with the soon to come substandard service you will get with all of your proposed cuts. If "cuts" is the big word of the day then maybe we should start at the top by cutting the town board salary for failure to use common sense. Don't get me started on the Tajmah Hall Library that is going up. That Library and the board members that sold it to the voters will leave behind a legacy as being the building that bankrupted the town.
Why don't the Board members set an example and accept a 23% pay cut? Feiner seems to love his job so much, you think he would happily do it for the pension and $80k per year. As the others, why do they need more than $25K?
The 2 new cops are replacing members that retired, they are not creating new positions, just replacing retired members, like every other police department in the country.
Dear Anonymous 12/11 2:16 PM,
I hope that you are sitting down when you read this, but the part-time Councilmembers also are eligible for a state pension and life time tax free medical coverage, if they have served enough years, which I think is 10. Timmy Weinberg gets this benefit. Ms. Barnes is also elibible upon her departure from the Board. What's the value you may ask? Well, single coverage costs about $600 per month or $7,200 per year. A 68 year old woman ( I seem to recall that that is her age) has a remaining life expectancy of about 16 years (based on the Social Security Administration's tables). So if she only opts for single coverage, the present value cost is a minimum of $115,200. Not bad for part time work. If she opts for family coverage you can double that to about $230,000. And that doesn't take inflation into account. Is it any wonder why the Town Board doesn't want you to really understand the HUGE liability that the taxpayers are facing?
the answer is easy - term limits!
Look at the all giveways Feiner wants for "volunteer" firemen.
They already get health care and retirement benefits. Now he wants them to get subsidized housing at Town cost.
Dear Anonymous 12/11 4:53PM,
I must be missing something. What "giveaways" are you talking about? What health benefits are you talking about?
As to the LOSAP (retirement) programs, every fire district that has them had to have a vote by the citizens to approve these plans. Get your facts right!!!!!
Fine, you have a right to vote on your retirement.
Why do the rest of the town taxpayers have to give you housing?
There are empty units in GHA. Let the firmemen live there.
Are these police officers guaranteed their stipend in their contract. If so it cant be taken away!
Look into the TDYCC budget ! A waste of expenses for the most part. Who actually keeps track of management ? There seems to be much waste - but nobody wants to cause an uproar in the community if jobs are cut their !
Wait until antoher critical situation in the Town occurs - like another school shooting! (There was a school shooting in Greenburgh a few years ago ) The officers, paramedics and stipends everyone wants to cut will matter then! The officers train to enter a building or a school with the shooter alive and shooting at people. Who else would have the courage to enter a building knowing very well they may be carried out? Those same officers everyone is criticizing are the ones that will enter, put themselves in harms way to save your children! I DONT SEE HAL DOING THAT - Hal would cowering under a desk screaming for those very same officers he wants to cut off the force!
You don't want to cut the force then one thing has to be done .
NO raises for anyone.
We cannot afford the PD's demands.
Paul say NO and encourage the board to do the same.
How about having the Police enter the building, guns blazing away and taking out the miscreant?
The picture I don't see is the Police paramedic with an assault weapon in one hand entering a school crime scene and a respirator in the other.
Stop this crap that only Police paramedics can save lives. Paramedics, civilian or police save lives. If we need the Police to charge a school, we need every officer including the one that may be serving as a paramedic across town.
And, since the Police work with the civilian paramedics, is it the official position of the Police Department that the civilian paramedics they assist are worthless?
Finally to first person singular anonymous "survivor" who is so grateful to have his/her life saved by a Police paramedic, given your enormous gratitude wouldn't you want to use your name to make your point seem real? And would you have refused service from a civilian paramedic? Or was the Policeman who saved your life, a stipended policeman or just the first nearest responding officer who possessed some "smarts"?
Harken back to those days when the Chief demonstrated how to use the portable defibrilator unit he wanted the town to buy. So simple that even the Chief could operate it. Even Diana Juettner nodded her head like she understood. Perhaps even his regular police officers could learn to operate this without going to six months of school or needing $10,000 stipends as they ride around in their patrol units. What does the paramedic really do that is so complicated? CPR? a stipend needed? Guide a stretcher? Drive fast to the hospital? I doubt that they attempt open heart surgery.
Hold your water! I'm sure that even the lowest patrol officer on the totem pole is taught some basics of life saving. I'm just questioning the inference that only those collecting $10,000 for passing go are capable of saving lives.
But just in case saving lives is the answer meant to make any critics back off, what happens at the Town Pool during the summer? Do the lifeguards also get $10,000 stipends in case they are called upon to save a life?
The whole concept of stipends is extra pay for performing your job.
In the stipend discussed here, the stipend is the carrot that drives the theory that the police already earn higher pay and benefits because their job has a degree of risk and that they are perceived to be heroes -- a function that is not pure job PBA job description but nevertheless earned. Why then should they be paid more if they were to save a life along the way?
Should they get a stipend if they have to confront a gun wielding assailant? Should firement get a stipend if they have to enter a burning building? How much more then should soldiers be paid in combat zones. Should an army medic in combat get extra money?
Stop trying to get around the economics of how the Police Department uses its higher paid resources rather than have lower paid civilians perform the same jobs. If the Chief says the Department function with minimal uniforms, he should be the first to propose replacing those uniforms with civilians.
It is not anti-life or anti-police that is being discussed; rather it is pro-taxpayer. And I recognize that it might cost more to have a full time staff of civilian paramedics vs having police paramedics with stipends. But, a careful analysis, including the down time of a police officer and the greater contributions to overtime and pension of his/her pay grade and pension quickly even out the difference. And to put this in greater perspective, one would want to look closer into the overtime earned in the ALS department and see whether this could be reduced by more full time civilians and the return of the $60,000 stipend line (almost one full-time civilian itself).
All in all, it seems like the opposition is just making the classic arguements against an open shop.
And the very finally, if I had chosen to seek employment as a Police Officer, I would have made certain assumptions about the risks and rewards in conjunction assuming the job rsponsibilities. Working as a Policeman is a matter of choice, for all those free choice believers. And confronting danger is unfortunately part of the job. However on a comparitive basis, the dangers are not as imposing in Greenburgh as some other Police departments. As for putting myself in personal harms way, had I chosen and been selected to work as a Policeman, that would be my obligation. As I did not make this career choice, I would be justified in cowering under a desk and screaming for those who are paid to do the job, to do it.
Almost every day the newspaper reports on Americans killed in Iran. But somehow I don't suppose that the paychecks of those soldiers are anywhere near the pay scale that Greenburgh Police get.
And the number of Greenburgh Police casualties is...
So whereas I sympathize with those who engage in Police work, I do stop and wonder whether society can function equally without clerks in CVS or the A&P who earn fractions of the civil service and receive none of the meidcal or retirement benefits and because they have the misfortune to live in Greenburgh, they must also pay taxes to support those town employees who receive them.
Maybe the Chief of Police and the Town Board need another few hours playing SIM City. No social order functions without the clerks and the laborers and the nurses; it ain't just managers, pencil pushers and doctors. It may not be awards time in Greenburgh, but I want to thank all the little people that make it possible and who do it for little compensation. As time is running short, I don't have time to thank the individual police officers so in lieu of that, when depositing your paycheck, think of all those taxpayers who work just as hard to make it possible. We are all bozo's riding the same bus.
Now if the Town Board would have the courage to get its act together and not settle on the smoke and mirror solution to get through just one more year...
Lets deal with facts. Hal Samis has no understanding of how the police department operates. He pontificates on subjects he doesn't even have a cursory knowledge of. Obviosly Hal, paramedics are not the only ;olice officers that can save lives, they are howeever the highest trained police officers in thge area of EMS. They administor drugs, start iv's, draw blood, ect ect. THese are skills that the average cop does nor perform. Why Hal, because regular cops are not trained and State certified to perform those functions. The stipend ypu attack is compensation for performing skills that are above the civil service job descritions of a police officer. These offficers are fairly compensated for the skills they perform and the added risks they take on. Most cops do not want to be paramedics it takes a special person to want to do that type of work.
It is true that the Greenburgh Police EMS system should be changed and I agree it should be entirely civilanized through attrition.
You complain about police officer salaries being to high but you offer non comparisions to other local municipalities. You really show your ignorance when you try to correlate police officer salaries to soldiers in Irag.
Heres another facts Hal. There police officers have made the ultimate sacrifice protecting the residents of the Town of Greenburgh. As you sais Hal being a police officer is a matter if free choice and all 122 members freely made that choice. The knew the inherent risks that come with the job, the family sacrifices they would make and the knew they would be fairliy compensated. You know begrudge these same officers because they are paid well. THey will continue to be paid well if you want to maintain the police services residents have become accustommed to. One only has to loook to NY city to see what happens when cops are not fairly compensated.
Now Hal I fully expect some sarcastic factless reponse like you usually give when your foolish comments are intellectually challanged. Anytime you want to discuss the police department feel free to write
I apologize for the typos I hit send by accident. Three Greenburgh police officers lost their lives in the line of duty
And the civilian paramedics have the same training. Obviously, Police paramedics have more training than regular Police officers without, but not all calls requires this extra level of skill. So the question is who's better at doing EMS, the Civilians or the Police; not the trained Police vs the untrained Police.
The issue remains: civilian staffing or the Police? It is not the Police or no one.
Dear Mr. Taxpayer for Private Enterprise:
Let's privatize ! How ridiculous!
Police still would have to respond to the aided cases - Look at other munincipalities.
Hey Hal -
There is such a thing as TEMS.
Its Tactical EMS - If you must know, there are police paramedics and plenty of EMT's on tactical teams! its becoming a requirment for the special teams. They carry ALS equipment & assault weapons ! They go as far as carrying stretchers into a crisis situation.
dont see civilians doing that.
Hal-
Do you get off on this site ???
You loser!
Does Greenburgh have TEMS?
Does the County?
Does Greenburgh have to be prepared for every conceivable situation or can it skip a few?
What's next, a militia?
And to anyone who doesn't like what I write, when the first line says "Hal Samis said", that would be your clue to "walk on by".
Greenburgh does not need to provide every service imaginable.
Privatizing paramedic services may make good economic sense - may we please hear the factual pros and cons?
Mainitaining a homicide squad may not make good economic sense. Sharing the specialized services such a squad brings to its work may be far more economically provided by the NY State Police.
Highly specialized skills are expensive - the broader the base sharing them, the more likely we are to be able to afford them. A marine patrol unit would make much more sense as a state police unit - or at the very least a county one... but political egos being what they are, we will simply have to take out our checkbooks to feed their delusions of adequacy.
From todays JN
MAMARONECK VILLAGE - Representatives of an Orthodox Jewish school said they may ask for $22 million in damages from the village if it continues to fight the school's proposed expansion in the Orienta Point neighborhood.
The Westchester Day School won a federal appeals court decision in October in favor of its proposed $12 million construction plan. Village officials must now decide whether to appeal the decision to the U.S. Supreme Court, have a court trial over the damages due or begin settlement talks.
Are we going to have the same problem with Fortress??
Also from Todays JN
"Even with this budget, the town is not overtaxing its communities," Feiner said
The Board should follow the supervisors recommendations and conduct a comprehensive management review before making major changes in the structure of government. Careful, not react to the blog. Know what you are doing before you take action.
Why has only police responded? What about parks and recs?
No senior WPA.
it seems Hal Samis struck a nerve with PD. These people who are attacking him are most likely police officers, who know what the real deal is and are afraid of budget cuts. who else would know these details about the PD
Once again lets help clear some things up. someone asked about pros and cons of privatizing EMS. Of course you can privatize EMS however that is not without it's own price tag. First, the town would loose the revenue it generates from the ems calls (not sure how much but I believe it's over 1 mil). Thats for the unincorporated part of the town. The six villages have volunteers (BLS care) who have a civilian medic from Greenburgh PD to assume care of a patient who needs advanced life support. When the villages first researched getting medics years ago (early to mid 90's) they could not come to agreeable terms (money, terms, volunteer opposition, etc.) with a private service. So they decided to utilize the towns services. Try to sell privatizing ems service to the villages.
Second, the private ambulance services are businesses, they will not work for free, if they don't make money they won't come to greenburgh. If you use the police dept. ambulance and you can't pay for the service ($400-800) because you don't have insurance or your insurance will only pay part, you don't get collection comp. on your back. With a commercial service they will collect. Also your ambulance service might not be dedicated, meaning that if they are not tied up on a job in greenburgh they could be sent to other areas covered by that company to do calls. Remember it's a business they don't make money if they are parked somewhere waiting for a call. So when you need an ambulance at 3am you might have to wait till that ambulance responds from another town or city. Things such as how many ambulances and requirements of response times are all things that a town would have to negotiate with that company. The more options you get, the higher the price tag. The cheapest way for the privates to do it would be to bill for service and collect but by doing that they would use that ambulance when it's not on a town call, so when you need it, it could be coming from anywhere. The police dept ambulance responds to our community solely. So privatizing could be done and it might work great but it all depends on how much the town wants to spend. I don't think they want to spend that much.
Next topic....using the state police "homicide squad"? whoever said that watches too much TV. Greenburgh has a Detective Division which investigate ALL major crimes in the town. They are well trained to investigate all major crimes (robbery, rape, homicide,frauds, fatal accident's and many other felony crimes). By the way just because you didn't see it on news 12 or read about it in the journal news doesn't mean it didn't happen. Crime happens in greenburgh if you think it doesn't you should probably crawl out from under that blanket you've been hiding under. The detectives in greenburgh are extremely busy if you doubled the manpower in that division they will still be just as busy.
Next.. marine unit..going to the state police. the state police is on the unit whether or not they have the manpower to go out on the unit is a different story. The State police no longer has a boat to put in the waters bordering the town (hudson river) thats why they ride with greenburgh. That funding for the boat comes primarily from the feds. Very small portion comes from the town if any at all. Before the police dept mans that boat they assure there is enough manpower on the streets if there isn't they don't man the boat. County PD has a boat for the hudson but it's not always available when you need it. There is alot of recreational boating on the river during the summer so they could be tied up on a job up by the bear mountain and not be avail. to our area. As it is now even with the marine units out there on the river there isn't enough. All towns, villages, and cities have the same problem getting more responsibility with less resources. Most departments are working at bare minimum and any cuts will put safety in jeopardy. Even now before these proposed cuts take place the officers responding to calls are at times working with minimal backup.
If you are wondering if I am cop, let me save you the time, I am a cop. Everyday I go to work I have one goal and that is to make sure that me and my squad get to go home to our family in one piece. Yes I chose to be a cop and I know there is always a risk but I didn't choose to be put at risk because of poor financial decisions made by politicians. Yes we are well compensated, we are not the highest paid nor are we the lowest paid. Most of us still cannot afford to live in the town we work in. I'm sure people reading this blog can go on and on about how my comments are biased because I am a cop. I know people are upset about the proposed tax cuts and would simply just say cut, cut, cut. Before making any comments or decisions you should really think about how these proposed cuts can directly affect the quality of life you are accustomed to living here in greenburgh. Isn't that why you live here. Today we cut this, next time we cut that and so on. When does it stop. Maybe when the town gets sued after someone dies as a result of substandard service. If I am not mistaken didn't the town have to pay out millions several years ago after a couple died on central ave when a tree on town property fell on there car. Could that tree falling have been prevented, I don't know. Can the cutting of service be prevented, absolutely and yes, at a price. Pay a little now or a lot later. There never is a simple fix, if there was we won't be here discussing our concerns.
An educated resident!
i would like to hear the cop's views on the following
1. central dispatch system for all of greenburgh - one police force with precincts as per nyc - eliminate 6 or 7 village police chiefs - all the benefits of consolidation etc
2. use of civilians as dispatchers instead of police
3. termination of use of police as escorts for religious services or at for example the dog cemetery (these organization should pay for these manpower intensive services)
4. ending funding for the DARE program
thank you for your insights and education.
the tree was in a special park district in unincorporated greenburgh. the district taxpayers were taxed for tree maintenance by the town. the town collected the money. the town had no tree maintenance plan. the tree fell causing death an destruction to a husband and wife in a car. the town was underinsured by millions. the town settled the case (there was a huge shortfall because of the underinsurance) and then sent a bill to the villages for their share of the settlement. the villages went ballistic and started to think about leaving greenburgh. the common thread to most of this was the ineptitude of supervisor feiner (sorry hal, most of this was feiner's screw up).
i really dont know how feiner (or other town board members like juettner and barnes) sleep at night knowing how much damage they caused this family and the town by not doing their jobs. i guess paul was too busy issuing press releases about himself and the other fools on the board were just doing there time so to get free lifetime medical benefits. so sad for us.
Dear 9:44 PM, you of typos fame,
Would you care to validate your anonymous claim that three police officers have died in the line of duty?
I have made discreet enquiries and have come up empty-handed. Police officers, like all others, are susceptible to ageing infirmities such as heart attacks etc. but being killed by a hail of bullets, car crashing enroute to an incident, nada.
But go for it. I am interested.
Dear knowledgeable Police Officer,
Did you not mention that the Town would lose the perhaps over $1 million of revenue that the EMS generates? And, then go on to note that a private concern would have to charge for service. I know that I have not given this matter much effort beyond a reasoned hypothesis but my shoot from the hip response is to ask why the privatized EMS service would not be able to latch onto the $1 million revenue stream that somehow the Town receives.
Furthermore, I have not myself advocated the privatized approach. All I have proposed is replacing the six stipended Police officers with lower paid civilians. I am certain that both groups are at worst equally well-trained while at best the civilians might have the edge in skill not being responsible for cleaning their guns, learning how to write tickets or how not to compromise a crime scene.
And civilians, dedicated to just one responsibilty, are more likely to always be involved with EMS response while the stipended Officers might be involved with Police duties that can't be aborted at will.
Right back at ya.
Hal,
It took me about 5 minutes to find Greenburghs Line of Duty deaths.
Det Sgt. E. Sullivan 5-14-40
PO J. Brunner 8-19-50
PO J. Carozza 7-20-84
May they rest in peace
One was shot, one in a car wreck, I'm not sure of the third.
Hey Hal I thought this blog site was for the town budget crisis. You sure know how to go of on a tanget
Hal
With a town the size of Greenburgh 1 mil would not be enough for a private provider to effectively cover our needs for EMS.
6 stipened medics = approx 51,000
6 civilian medics = approx 330,000 before benefits. Hal, I agree that making it all civilian EMS would keep the cop from being tied up on an ems call. But as you can see it would cost more money thats why its done the way its done. Remember what I said about more responsibilty less resources, well here is an example. One person doing both the medic work and the police work, as opposed to two persons doing the work of two.
By the way Hal as far as training for the civilian medics vs cop medics. Hers's a little fact you obviously do not know. Most of the cops that are medics were civilian medics first and all the medics whether cop or not get the same training.
Hal if I can help you clear up any of your misconceptions or simple lack of knowledge as far as police or ems I will gladly help you.
My insight on centralizing services.
That has been a very touchy issue for years. My opinion is that even though every village wants to remain independent by providing there own services (police and dispatching) to their community. It would save millions if we were one central department. There is alot of duplication of services in this town. It would be logistically very difficult but very possible. For example 24hrs a day there is at least one person dispatching emergency and non emergency calls for each police dept (two in greenburgh). Thats anywhere from 6-8 people dispatching call. (I don't know how the villages man there dispatching so it could be cop or civilian). There are 7 chiefs, seven sets staff members, and so on. It would be a much more cost effective way of doing business. Initially it would be a scheduling nightmare but in the longrun very cost effective. Another area with duplication of services are the three paid fire districts. have you checked your fire protection taxes, we are among the highest in the nation. We have 3 paid dept. Fairview, Hartsdale, and Greenville. They belong to the same union, when there is a fire, they respond together and cover each others firehouse when needed during a fire and they occasionally train together. There would be no change in the service you get, why not merge, I'm sure there are fire type folks who could better explain why they won't merge.
Civilan dispatchers vs police dispatchers. Greenburgh uses civilians, police are used when civilian is sick or on a meal break or takes a day off. On night shift there is one civilian and a cop is used when that civilian is off. I can't speak as to the 6 village dept. dispatching.
Use of police for religious services. The majority of this type of work is done by our auxillary (volunteer) officers. They are not cops and do not carry firearms nor have they been to a police academy. However they perform important services that we cannot due to manpower and budget issues. Whenever you see a sworn officer doing that type of work ie. traffic in front of a church that specific church is paying for that officer to be there (most of the time). Escorts are done as a courtesy primarily for funerals. They are done if manpower permits, if not enough manpower we don't do them.
As far as DARE program, i'm not sure how much that program cost I believe it is somewhere in the 40,000- 50,0000 price range. Cutting that program will do nothing to help our budget crisis. I'm sure if they cut it there will be some very upset school officials and parents. I hope that answers your questions.
It is good to have some serious discussion here, instead of the name-calling that Bernstein and his friends indulge in. I am learning something.
Impressive, I agree it's about time we get good exchange on this blog.
This is to "cop said" Why are there so many cops working inside and on special details ? instead of on patrol.
Why do police pfficers train to be firefighters on the rescue team ???
Is that another duplication of service?
Do you live in town ? could be why you don't care what the taxes are.
150 UNION members at one of Westchester's hospital have been laid off.
Why do people say that Greenburgh's employees cannot be laid off due to the fact that they are union members.
If you don't lay off accross in all departments,then stop the raises.
It has to be one or the other.
Police dept too many cops.
Rec and Dpw too many doing nothing,just waiting for leaves and snow for overtime.
Make the move to lay off now and maybe our taxes for the following few years will be somewhat lower.
Your employees are demanding too much.$10,000.00 raises in one dept. and we don't know what the others are asking for .
Please remember we cannot afford their demands anymore.
They would rather see Greenburgh in bankruptcy than to forget their demands.
In regards to the question about cops working inside on "special details". There are no special details, there is only 1 or 2 positions that could be done by a civilian I'm sure thats what you really want to know.
I'm not sure where you get your info but there are no cops that do firefighter work. The technical rescue team is a joint team with the fire dept. made up of cops and firemen. So to answer your question no there is no duplication of service since they work together on one team. I do live in town and I never said I didn't care what the taxes are. You might want to read my comments again since you didn't quite understand them the first time.
Dear Cop said,
Please decide whether it was the best use of a uniformed officer.
During the leaf law Public Hearings, the question was raised why there were so few residents of the Apartment Buildings on East Hartsdale Avenue at the Town Board meeting. The Chief announced that he had an officer hand deliver notice of the meeting to the shopkeepers. He could also have the officer deliver the notices to the Apartment buildings for the next hearing if necessary.
My bet is that the uniformed Post Office mailman would be the better choice.
And don't the Police also make deliveries to the members of the Town Board?
dear cop
do any other towns in westchester have one police force that covers both its unincorporated and unincorporated areas?
thanks again for your valuable posts.
feiner fashion himself as a dubious problem solver. we dont need a problem solver. we need a fiscal watchdog with a sharp pencil who can speak the truth everyone truly knows - we can no longer afford the status quo.
career politicians like feiner and juettner are the real problem. a citizenry in denial is another.
from the journal news (paul feiner being quoted on budgets of past two years):
He said he voted for those budgets because he believed they were a "fait accompli" and because voting no would have provided ammunition for political attacks.
Hal,
Yes you are right about cops delivering mail pertaining to the town board to it's members. I did not know about delivering notices to shopkeepers about the meeting. My opinion is let the mail man or courrier service deliver the mail. However I said before and I'll say it again "less resources, more responsibility"
In regards to questions about other towns having more than 1 police force between an unincorpotated and incorporated part of the town. I'm not to sure about the makeup off other towns, whether or not they are incorporated or not but there several towns with multiple forces(ie Mt. Pleasant, Mamaroneck). Cortlandt uses state and county, plus it also uses Peekskill pd for it's city. However Yorktown uses 1 force for its town and mohegan village. I'm not sure if there are any towns with 6 villages within them. There is a large variety of makeups for towns and villages as far as police goes, we have over 40 police depts. in this county. I hope that helps answer your question.
Duplications of services in the PD should be checked.
Samis gave you a good overview as to where these are.
What will be done it's up to you.
Are you ready to do what's right or not.
Tell me why were all the policemen at town hall last night. They don't give a plain S--t as to how the tax payers fell about the hike.
They want what they want and that's it.
We want our taxes to be lowered.
If there were to be layoffs in the PD. what were they ready to do.
They do not understand the position that most of us will be in with this great hike.
Freeze the police salaries at this point.
It was said last night that raises in salary also raises their benefits that we all have to pay.
Paul we all know that you are afraid to make waves with the police department.but theswe waves have been drowning us right along because :
The tax hike was low and no one checked their budget.
Now Samis broke up their budget line for line and showed YOU and THE BOARD where cuts should and can be made.
Did you all pay attention or you don't give a dam.
If we don't need something it should be done away with it.
Why do we have to pay for duplicate services in the PD.
Give us a break Paul.
With all the talk you still will be hiring 2 or more police personel.
What else will you be throwing in our direction.
There should be a hiring freeze until all departments are investigated pertaining to duplicate services.
If this cannot be done then fire whomever to help lower the tax hike for the following years.
Right now you could only do what is brought forth to your attention,but we all know nothing will be done with all the advice that was given to you.
Every one wants but their wanting is not available this time arround
We voted for you now show us if we did the right thing or are we being Snowed under..
Mr.Bernstein you are a lawyer maybe you could answer this question.What would happen if we the residents refuse to pay taxes?
SNOW PARKING
Never before was parking banned during the day on E. Hartsdale Ave. With the obvious lack of sign-age that the law has changed, it sad cars are being ticketed on the street. Each parking meter should state the new law. Signs should be installed throughout the street. Better yet, bag the meters like has always happened in the past when the street needed clearing during the day.
This is an obvious ploy by the Chief to get the new law off the books as soon as possible - it was a setup form the beginning.
Dear 1:58,
This was not the first or the last snow job by the Chief.
"TO COP SAID"
Stop training cops with FF's and let the firefighters do there job.
I'm sorry, but if you train to do the same job as FF's then it's a DUPLICATION of service. Might as well put FF's in SWAT school.
There were never going to be layoffs within the police department. As much as I hate to admit it Hal Samis is half right on the EMS issue. It is not about the money or whether police paramedics save lives or are over compensated, what matters is the effectiveness of their service. The Town would be better served both from an EMS standpoint and a policing standpoint if the EMS program were civilianized. Many bloggers in the know have have discussed the manpower requiremnets that EMS drains from the police department. On many occassions the police medic and emt are out of service for over one hour leaving two sectors uncovered. This is an indisputable fact. The problem is that the Chief is not willing to listen to any suggestions on how to more efficiently run the police department. If the Town wants a better run/managed police department it starts at the top. Kapica truely believes he can run the department how he choses with no oversight from the Town. Feiner has allowed this for years. The problem also is that when he is challanged usually by people with no police experience he prevails. There are many competent members within the department and community that could be used to improve the police department. The Town should create a committee of community members, current and retired police officers and a board member to review the department. If you want channge then the Chief needs to be held accountable, he needs to explain his positions after being challanged by people that actually understand policing, and more importantly policing in Greenburgh.
anytime a suggestion is made about the PD the Chief gets mad. Maybe we should have term limits on Chiefs
The problem is that he will retire in twoyears with a fantastic penson.
He gets what he wants regardless of the fact that residents resent his practices and he has gotton his way many years without anyone checking on his spending.
Now is the time to change things.
Now people are talking about changes that would improve police services in the Town. I really like the idea of a committee to study the department. Paul, you should embrace this idea. As for the chief, he needs to go.
I agree with 4:32's ideas. I would like to hear more from you. What is your position and the chiefs tenure? It sounds like you are in the know.
I don't know if I should settle for the half glass that 4:32 begrudgingly offers.
However he has given me the hook to mention something that I thought of this morning but haven't really viewed under the microscope; but here goes.
To my understanding, there is an existing group called the Police Advisory Board which would seem to be what 4:32 is suggesting. But here's the rub and merging with my thought this morning.
I was thinking how everyone is going through the public show for the departing Council member, Eddie Mae Barnes and because I generally seek out the less traveled path I thought about last night's meeting and two areas that she is concerned with being the Town Board's liaison to both the Housing Authority and the Police Advisory Board. I asked myself why are the problems at the Housing Authority only now being discussed and of course the obvious answer is the limited talents of Ms Barnes. However she is out and I don't need to dwell on her performance or attendance record at such meetings. But it goes beyond a discussion of her ability to understand problems and communicate them -- something that would seem to be relevant to one who acts as a liaison. And then I realized that the title itself lacks the proper direction.
The Town Board Liaison to whatever board, organization, group...
The Town Board doesn't need to send a member to these groups. Indeed, it is the groups that need to send their liaison to the Town Board. In the current arrangement, the Town Board liaisons become chummy with the Boards or whatever the entity and they become the publicist for whatever legitimate purpose or scam that these "boards" want to hatch. Because their Agent is the Town Board member, the rest of the Town Board often fail to discern that they are being sold a bill of goods solely because it is one of their peers carrying the message. When the liaison is clearly stamped "Property of the board or group", the Town Board is more likely to recognize who has sent the message.
Clearly I may be prejudiced from my personal experience observing the Town Board's liaison to the Library, Diana Juettner, operate when she decides to pay a visit to the Library Board of Trustees monthly meetings. If you think she says nothing at the Town Board meetings, then triple that at the Library Board. But the reality is if the Town, the Town Supervisor or the Town Board wishes to address or weigh in on an Issue concerning the Library or the Housing Authority or whatever, they can do it directly by phone or by email. They don't need to send a liaison who seldom attends with more than an empty portfolio.
So re 4:32's specific comment on the Police Department. The Town already has an official "appointed" body to meet with the Police. However, like most town appointed boards, they are comprised of a less than august group of members and they are often so ineffectual that they are reappointed to multiple boards as though the guiding principle was: he (or she) who doesn't raise a fuss is the one most likely to be revered. And of course, there will be a rush of comments to chastise me for mocking those astute challenged VOLUNTEER members of the Town's advisory boards. But take a break and then think CAC, Library Board, Historic Preservation, ETHICS Board, etc. Dilletante row. I don't often agree with the conclusions of the Zoning and Planning Boards but I will allow that some of their membership are in fact hardworking and well-meaning citizens.
But for the most part, think rubber stamps.
Now, go ahead and take your shots.
Hal, against my better judgement I wil try to discuss my position. I can only give you half a glass because although you are right in principle I disagree with your reasoning.
As two your second point, I again half heartedly agree. The police advisory board is made up of civilians with no police experience, although some may have "quote law enforcemrnt experience" They however are not an oversight board, make no policy decisions, have not in my opinion done anything to make the police department more efficient. THe chief certainly does not take orders from them. As for Barnes as the police liasion, you were right on the money.
The problem with the department starts at the top. If the Town is serious about reviewing police operations, it must be done by professional police people. I would argue that people with knowlege of how this department works be included.
Interesting comments about the Chief. What do you think Paul? You are always forming committees, what about one to study the police department.
STILL NOTHING FROM PARKS AND RECREATION !!!!!
One idea for recreation is. Stop paying Edgemont money for Day Camp and have their children go to Greenburgh Rec camp seems like another duplication of service.
Read todays Scarsdale Inquirer editorial. The paper blasts the Board & Feiner for being disfunctional. The editorial writer (could it be Susan Wolfert?)forgot to put in a disclaimer that Wolfert is also a member of the Library Board. The Town Board's new budget proposal calls for $200,000 in additional cuts for the library. Was this Wolfert's attempt to get even?
And cut Dads Club funding too.
And stop letting village teams play on Town property -- Oh I forgot - that would go agaisnt Fiener's "Villages First" policy.
What kind of cuts were made?
Did you state that there would be a salary freeze?
Does the police dept. get the ten thousand dollars raises?
Has the Rec.dept and DPW responded as to what cuts they would make?
If the answer is no to all these questions go back and see how much you can lower the tax with all the suggestions that were made at the meeting of the 12.
Yes The chief made some sense but he still demands his ten thouswand dollar raise. right.
No we do not need a swat team if the county and state has one.
Yes we should be prepared for the worse but by all means we have to save money .This high budget will kill many people .
We all cannot afford all the things that the depts, want.
Paul you and the board have to say NO to many things that the dept. Demands.
Our money has bee paying the patrolman at the housing complex.
I understand that the town is owed $300,000.00.
Do you understand we already paid out that money.
Has no one in the police dept. ever told you the truth of the money owed for this one favor.
Believe me they are not true blue.
I do hope that you have thought of the people in the unincorporated section of Greenburgh who have to pay the highest rate this time and in future years to come.
I guess not letting village teams play on town property will really cut our taxes, won't it.
Boy, are you dumb.
Excsue me, our overused fields need excessive maintenance. Why do the villages not pay when they use them.
And why has parks and recs not submitted anything re budget.
Is there ever going to be cuts in the Police Dept ? probaly NOT!!
It's just a waste of money. We should have civilian EMS and contract with the County and State PD's for police protection. They would come already trained and ready for anything. We already pay taxes for County and State police on top of the money we pay now for town police. It's something to think about for next year. Town of Cortlandt does it and they have no problems. When you call for help they are there in minutes.
Everybody needs to look at the BIG picture!
I hope paul you are cutting the arts from the town budget, lets leave art to the museums.
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